chronic illness Emotional Health Environmental Toxins Mind-Body Medicine optimize your brain

How to Rewire Your Brain Using DNRS, with Annie Hopper

On this episode, we talk about:

  • How Annie’s well being journey impressed her to start DNRS
  • The limbic system and neuroplasticity
  • What causes limbic system impairment
  • How to inform when you have a limbic system impairment
  • How DNRS works
  • Retraining your mind with the acronym IMAGINE
  • The distinction between DNRS, psychotherapy, and mindfulness
  • How you possibly can attempt DNRS

Present notes:

Hey, everyone, it’s Chris Kresser. Welcome to another episode of Revolution Well being Radio. This week I’m actually excited to welcome Annie Hopper as a visitor. She is the creator of the Dynamic Neural Retraining System, a top-down, self-directed neuroplasticity-based strategy to rewiring persistent illness disease patterns within the brain.

DNRS, the Dynamic Neural Retraining System, is one thing that I’m utilizing increasingly with my sufferers within the clinic, with exceptional leads to many instances. And I’ve talked about neuroplasticity and a number of the other underlying scientific concepts behind this technique on the show just lately. And I feel you’re actually going to take pleasure in learning about this new strategy to addressing sure continual circumstances. So without further ado, let’s dive in.

Chris Kresser:  Annie, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the present. Thanks so much for becoming a member of us.

Annie Hopper:  Thanks a lot in your invitation, Chris. It’s a pleasure to be right here.

How Annie’s Health Journey Impressed Her to Start DNRS

Chris Kresser:  So I all the time like to begin with the backstory. So most of the friends that I interview on the present have their very own journey and their own purpose for ending up the place they are. They’ve been on their own well being journey, and I would include myself in that group. And I know from studying your e-book and simply understanding slightly bit about your story that you simply got here to your interest in neuroplasticity and the development of the Dynamic Neural Retraining System via your personal well being journey. So tell us how that each one obtained began.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, positive, Chris. So identical to so many different individuals, I have my very own well being journey, and that’s precisely why I acquired into this enterprise, simply because I was sick and in search of solutions. So on the time when the sickness began, I was working in Kelowna, British Columbia, as a core belief counselor, and I additionally was the writer of a newspaper column referred to as “Emotional Rescue” that I wrote weekly.

And I was referred to as an professional in emotional wellness and was interviewed on the radio quite a bit at the time. And I was working one on one with individuals and in addition facilitating group workshops about personal improvement, improvement, and so forth. And unfortunately, I moved into an office where my office truly shared a wall with the janitor supply room where they held all the actually harsh industrial chemical cleaners for the office. And the constructing truly had mould in it too, so I was utterly unaware that I used to be being exposed to really heavy-duty chemical compounds each day and mould.

And even prior to working on this workplace about six months earlier, I was in a motorcar accident that left me with a form of cervical whiplash that seemed like, virtually mimicked symptoms like Parkinson’s, with this neurological shake in my neck. So anyway, slowly, while I used to be working in that building for about 5 months, I started to develop signs of persistent joint and muscle pain and insomnia and nervousness. And one thing that I observed was I was increasingly turning into delicate to chemical compounds in my surroundings and particularly anything that had a scent to it, so, together with individuals’s everyday personal hygiene merchandise, any type of perfumes or colognes or laundry detergent or material softener or cleansing agents that folks would use to clean their houses. And it didn’t daybreak on me that my sense of odor was changing. I just thought that all the things else was altering. And my favourite saying used to be, “That stinks. Can’t you smell that?”

Chris Kresser:  Right.

Annie Hopper:  I’m, like, I could not consider that different individuals could not odor the same thing that I was smelling, as a result of perfume not smelled like perfume. It smelled like some type of poisonous bug spray, and it felt like I was being poisoned by things in my surroundings. And it simply, yeah, it just felt like science fiction. And so, yeah, so my sensitivity started to improve. I received increasingly more signs.

And because it obtained to the purpose with chemical sensitivities that if somebody was doing their laundry they usually happened to have laundry exhaust floating by in the air and I walked by that, I might go into convulsions. Or if somebody walked by with fragrance, similar thing. And it will take me days and days to get well. So navigating my world turned just actually troublesome. So, I ended up isolating rather a lot because of that as a result of I might not go out into public. And if I did, I had to put on a masks and I had to be actually careful about exposures. And on prime of that I had a persistent ache condition, and on the very finish, in the direction of the top of this illness journey, I additionally developed electric hypersensitivity syndrome, which meant that, you already know what meaning, I turned sensitive to the whole lot—wireless, cell phones, electronics, all the things. So it meant that I might not even speak on the telephone.

It was just, yeah, simply science fiction-like. So you’ll be able to imagine during this course of sickness that I had gone to see plenty of totally different specialists. And though a few of the remedies, each allopathic and various, and although a number of the remedy appeared to assist briefly, nothing was really lasting for me. And I might all the time type of go back to that ground zero start line once more. And unfortunately the sickness just progressed and acquired worse as an alternative of getting higher.

So what I acknowledged for me, and even once I was creating this heightened sense of awareness for my sense of odor, it dawned on me that there was one thing fallacious with the best way that my mind was filtering info. And so I started to research the mind. In order that’s where we’ll begin, is just type of wanting at the previous and what truly occurred in the course of the course of the sickness. And it obtained so dangerous to the purpose once I developed electromagnetic sensitivities that I truly turned homeless. And not as a result of I didn’t have any cash, however just because my body, my brain have been reacting—

Chris Kresser:  No protected place.

Annie Hopper:  There was no protected place. In accordance to my mind, actually, there was no protected place. So, yeah, I ended up camping and dwelling on a broken-down houseboat, and life turned actually fascinating. Yeah, so, that’s type of the backstory.

The Limbic System and Neuroplasticity

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, and I’m curious what led you to the perception that this may’ve been a brain filtering drawback relatively than strictly an environmental drawback? As a result of that’s not necessarily, that was not the dominant paradigm view, definitely inside the group of multiple chemical sensitivity and EHS. So do you’ve gotten a sense of what led you down that path?

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, nicely, I feel it was just actually a strategy of deductive reasoning. If it’s not a detox drawback or it’s not this drawback, then what else might it’s? And it made sense to me that my brain simply wasn’t processing info correctly. Because I assumed, properly, how come any person else can walk down the laundry detergent aisle of the grocery retailer and never go into convulsions?

Chris Kresser:  Right.

Annie Hopper:  There’s obviously one thing really fallacious with my nervous system or the best way that my mind is deciphering sensory info. Plus my senses had modified. That they had utterly heightened. So I used to be taking a look at, I began to research what made sense to me is to research the world of the mind that’s answerable for sense of odor. And that’s what led me to the limbic system.

And in addition taking a look at, I was on the lookout for what was the widespread denominator in all of these sicknesses because it appeared to me that regardless that they’re expressing in multitudes of different ways—and yes, environmental elements have been a part of that and could have brought on the initial damage—it appeared to me that my brain simply wasn’t functioning correctly. Not solely sensory perception was distorted, but in addition my capability to assume, and cognitively I was very, very impaired and communication was actually troublesome.

Stringing a sentence together was really troublesome. And I assumed so, it’s extra than simply an environmental difficulty. It’s a mind concern. It’s a cognitive situation, it’s a central nervous system challenge. There’s one thing on the root of this that’s inflicting so many symptoms on many various ranges, whether or not that’s neurological, endocrine, immune system, intestine points. So I was taking a look at analysis that had already been accomplished on the brain in a number of overlapping circumstances like persistent fatigue, like fibromyalgia, like chemical sensitivities, like melancholy. And I found that the widespread denominator was this over-firing of menace mechanisms within the limbic system.

So once I began to take a look at, “Oh, okay, hang on a second, this makes sense,” that I additionally started to research the newest researchers in neuroplasticity. And I got here across a ebook referred to as The Brain That Modifications Itself by Dr. Norman Doidge.

Chris Kresser:  Norman Doidge, yes.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah. I’ve talked to him quite a few occasions since then, and anyway, he was researching the newest neuroplasticians of our time and taking a look at all of these so-called different incurable sicknesses and how they have been being, how individuals have been recovering via this new device with neuroplasticity. And actually, neuroplasticity simply means the brain’s potential to change.

So it was in studying one of many chapters of The Brain That Modifications Itself, and Dr. Norman Doidge was talking about Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz, who’s the guru of OCD. And he was speaking about why, what happens within the mind with OCD. And there’s part of the mind referred to as the caudate nucleus, and when that gets stuck, it leaves individuals with this feeling of contamination. They usually can’t truly transfer from one thought to the subsequent. And he was describing how he would get individuals to do these self-directed workouts and give them mind scans once they got here in after which give them workouts to do and do the brain scans afterwards. And how he observed that the brain was truly altering construction and performance by way of self-directed neuroplasticity.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, superb perception.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, yeah. So—

Chris Kresser:  Go ahead, please.

Annie Hopper:  Sorry about that. However although I didn’t have OCD, I felt like there’s something fallacious with my brain. It just feels like it’s caught. And I acknowledge that plenty of my thought processes, emotional processes, behavioral processes, and my physique’s reaction was all about survival. That I just sort of surmised that this flight, struggle, or freeze mechanism in my brain was caught. So my thought was, nicely, if this part of the mind is stuck, what if we get it unstuck? And would that resolve signs of sickness once we get that unstuck. So it was a superb question to pose, and that’s how it began.

Chris Kresser:  Proper. So this is the double-edged sword of neuroplasticity where we … the insight, which is our life expertise can change the structure and function of our brain as adults, which was a brand new concept. That’s, I feel Dr. Doidge refers to it as the best shift in our understanding of the mind in the final 300 years. I’ve heard him make that comment.

So on the one hand, the structure and performance of our mind can change in ways that don’t serve us, as it was the case for you. And being in that workplace, uncovered to mould and toxic chemical compounds. But the upside of neuroplasticity is that we will, by means of numerous top-down and bottom-up methods that we’ll speak more about later, modified the construction and function of our brain in additional constructive ways.

What Causes Limbic System Impairment

Annie Hopper:  Absolutely. And yeah, I just needed to go back to something, Chris. Something may cause limbic system impairment. Once you think of types or totally different types of trauma, so whether that’s viral or bacterial or chemical publicity or mould exposure or emotional stress or psychological stress or excessive EMF exposure, it could possibly be quite a lot of those issues that really culminate together to create the right storm to create limbic system impairment.

Chris Kresser:  And that is additionally, goes in along with more up to date understanding of trauma. I feel traditionally trauma was understood as restricted to type of an excessive occasion that would cause like a PTSD-level sort of syndrome. But in fact, it’s not black or white. There’s this entire spectrum of trauma. And these days within the scientific literature, I definitely see a wider understanding of trauma and the varied traumas that we all experience and the way they will accumulate in ways in which you describe to change the perform of the brain.

So one of the things, Annie, that I would like to type of clear up right off the bat is the difference between what you’re talking about, we’re speaking about here, and the thought of psychosomatic illness that is simply the place the affected person is simply type of imagining what’s happening. Because of course this was used for therefore a few years to diminish and in some methods belittle individuals who had circumstances like persistent fatigue syndrome and IBS and fibromyalgia and electric hypersensitivity. However what you’re speaking about could be very much not that.

So let’s, if we might make, clarify that for some people. Because I feel there’s typically some confusion when some individuals first hear about neuroplasticity and these ideas.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, that’s a very good question. And this is not a psychological sickness in any respect. And two factors about that. It’s not a psychological illness and it’s not the affected person’s fault. They didn’t do something to create this sickness. It’s not their ideas or their emotions which are creating the illness. There has been a real mind trauma.

So we know that mould, as an example, mould could be extraordinarily poisonous. And we now have all types of brain analysis out there that exhibits the way it affects the mind and how that damage, that absolute damage can affect the construction and performance of the brain. So we all know that the sicknesses will not be made up. There’s a real damage occurring. There’s a real poisonous damage, principally, occurring for individuals. And that that’s affecting not solely the body and the capability of lots of our totally different techniques to perform correctly, however it’s additionally affecting the brain structurally and functionally. And the brain goes into this actually innate, protecting, flight-or-fight mechanism. And it may be as a response to the precise trauma itself or it can be because any of the neurons alongside that neural pathway inside the limbic system grow to be broken or injured in any form or type.

And I feel this goes back to what does the limbic system do. So yeah, the limbic system in the brain is principally a collection of buildings which might be situated inside the midbrain which are generally known as our “feeling and reacting” mind. So it really discerns or it actually filters the billions of bits of data which might be coming to us at any given time limit and categorizes that info into two very distinct categories, protected or unsafe. And when you’ve got had some form of damage to this area of your brain otherwise you’re in a maladapted continual battle, struggle, or freeze response, then you’ll be able to imagine that stimuli that might be normally categorized as protected could be starting to be categorized as unsafe.

Now, that doesn’t imply that the patient did that themselves. That is an precise brain trauma or brain damage that’s inflicting that. And is that trigger, does that have an affect on the remainder of the body? Completely. I mean, once you think of the mind being the management middle of all the body, if your mind shouldn’t be functioning optimally, then you’ll be able to think about that it’s going to send messages in your immune system to be on alert, in your endocrine system to change as properly, so that you’d be releasing all types of various hormones which are related to this struggle, flight, or freeze response.

So it has a top-down impact on all techniques of the body. So on no account is this in your head in any respect. In reality, it’s really dangerous and so disrespectful to even recommend that this sickness is in the head. As a result of it’s not. It’s a mind damage. It’s a poisonous damage. It affects so many various techniques within the physique.

Chris Kresser:  Proper. Or I typically tell patients, if it’s in your head, every thing else is in your head too. Because there’s no experience that we’ve got that’s not mediated by the brain and there’s nothing that happens in the physique that’s not managed by the mind. So it’s such an essential thing for individuals to understand. And we’ve this entire area of psychoneuroimmunoendocrinology—received to be one of the longest phrases within the English language—that has been devoted to learning this for the past, for a number of many years now.

However sadly this understanding has not but trickled down into the mainstream consciousness about health and illness. And I feel as a clinician myself, it’s so, this understanding of the limbic system, which you’ve been instrumental in getting out there and having these approaches that we’re going to speak about to truly work with these circumstances is so necessary. Because there’s, my view is there are so many individuals who have a condition that’s no less than partially characterized by limbic system impairment, if not principally characterised by that.

And but there’s very little help for people who have these circumstances within the mainstream medical paradigm just because the notice of how they work and what to do about them continues to be pretty low.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, yeah, I might agree with you wholeheartedly. And we’re making an attempt to make our mark as much as we will around that. We now have two research studies happening proper now. One is an observational research that was carried out by McMaster College in Hamilton, Ontario. They looked at 100 individuals. It went by way of the five-day DNRS interactive training program and followed them for one yr taking a look at standardized and validated observational studies to measure differences in symptomatology. The results of that research can be revealed quickly. So I’m wanting forward to that.

And the other one is a research coming out of the University of Calgary and we’re solely getting into stage II of that research, where we’ll be taking a look at doing useful MRIs and numerous totally different testing biomarkers on folks that have persistent fatigue, fibromyalgia, or a number of chemical sensitivities and see how the brain is altering and in addition how totally different markers within the body are altering as the results of rewiring the limbic system perform. So, yeah, I imply, it’s a very new concept, and goodness is aware of how lengthy that is going to take to switch it into the mainstream medical system. But you understand, like you, we all know that it could actually’t happen soon enough.

Persistent sickness may cause lasting modifications in your mind, but the Dynamic Neural Retraining System (DNRS) may also help you rewire your brain and really heal. Take a look at this episode of RHR to study extra about DNRS. #wellness #chriskresser

How to Inform If You Have a Limbic System Impairment

Chris Kresser:  Absolutely. So let’s speak a bit bit. You’ve already touched on a number of totally different circumstances, MCS and electrical hypersensitivity, fibromyalgia. What characterizes a limbic system impairment? If somebody is struggling with health issues, how would they know or how would they think that they could have a limbic system impairment? And then as a corollary, what circumstances have you ever found to be sometimes related with a limbic system impairment?

Annie Hopper:  Each nice questions. So to start with, I might say that there is a questionnaire that’s situated on our website, and it has 29 questions, I consider. I’m simply taking a look at it right now. They usually’re just type of a common self-assessment questionnaire, so, wanting from cognitive symptoms to sensory signs to ache signs, all of that.

So, type of, right here’s an example of a few of the questions:

  • Do you expertise brain fog or lack of ability to focus or focus?
  • Do you endure from low power?
  • Do endure from continual joint or muscle ache?
  • Do you might have a heightened sense of odor or style or are you sensitive to foods or mild or sound?
  • Do perfumes or chemical products offer you a headache or make you are feeling nauseous and lightheaded?
  • Do you get noticeably irritable, anxious, or upset once you’re round particular stimuli?

So, there are a selection of various questions there that folks might take a look at to really say, “Oh, hang on a second, yeah. I think I might have this.” So taking a look at totally different symptoms on multiple totally different ranges—cognitive, emotional, psychological, and physical.

And when it comes to the actual sicknesses that we’ve got seen that profit from the program, it’s fascinating as a result of as we, I feel this is the 11th yr that I’ve been educating the program. And increasingly more individuals are reporting nice outcomes from rewiring limbic system perform. And even sicknesses that I didn’t even know originally can be affected.

However listed here are a few of the commonest ones:

So there’s about 10 which are actually widespread, and I’ve in all probability missed one thing. Did I say electrical hypersensitivity syndrome?

Chris Kresser:  EMF.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah. I might add to that … I imply, what’s fascinating for me is I treat loads of sufferers with very complicated persistent sicknesses. And I feel we might separate them now into two very broad groups. One group is the affected person who is available in, they undergo the entire Practical Drugs process they usually get higher. And it’d take a while and it’d require a couple of totally different interventions, but they make steady progress they usually get there.

Another group of patients is a patient who all the remedies that we might anticipate to work don’t work. Or they will’t even tolerate the remedies as a result of they’re so sensitive to the supplements or the other things that we’re utilizing to do the remedies. Or they get higher for a short time period after which they snap back, virtually like a type of gravity-like mechanism. Which I do know shouldn’t be all the time the case, however I typically suspect limbic system impairment in our group of patients. As a result of it’s virtually like, nicely, we know it in all probability is like, that there’s an entrenched pattern in the nervous system.

And that is preserving, that’s what’s producing the signs and even the downstream dysfunction. Like, imagine a patient has SIBO, bacterial overgrowth within the small intestine, properly, the intestine is only a massive bundle of nerves and is part of the nervous system. It’s been defined as a totally separate nervous system. And so if somebody has a chronically activated fight-or-flight response, that’s going to intrude with the motility of the gut and the cleaning action of that peristaltic wave which keeps micro organism from growing in the small gut.

And so even if we give that patient antibiotics or we treat them for SIBO and we haven’t addressed that sample, it’s simply going to come again. And I typically have found myself questioning if that is why the recurrence price for SIBO is so high—as a result of we’re not addressing the actual underlying cause in these conditions.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, I might agree with you 100 % there. And I feel that’s a very nice diagnostic or discernment, to say okay, is limbic system impairment involved on this? Because if they don’t seem to be getting better or they get higher for short durations of time and then maintain regressing, then sure, I might recommend that the underlying nervous system dysfunction has not been addressed but. And I feel that’s a very nice discernment and I might agree with you 100 %.

How DNRS Works

Chris Kresser:  Nice. So let’s speak somewhat bit concerning the Dynamic Neural Retraining System, which is in fact the strategy that you simply developed. I mean, your first step was to have the perception that this was a limbic system impairment, in your personal case. After which in fact, the subsequent step was for you to start determining, “Okay, if that’s the case, how can I use my brain to reverse this brain issue?” And so, yeah, inform us a bit of bit extra about, perhaps just a little bit about your personal path to the discovery there. After which how the system has advanced and what the essential strategy is.

Annie Hopper:  Positive. So, yeah, when it comes to my very own recovery, I had to really take a look at, I turned a very, I used to be already very expert at watching my very own inner patterns—my thought patterns, my emotional patterns, my behavioral patterns. It was part of my work earlier than I suffered from limbic system impairment. In order that talent set came in very useful once I was being my own guinea pig. Because what I acknowledged for myself was not solely was my body on this hyperreactive state, reacting to every little thing, however I simply thought back and actually looked at my thought processes.

And what occurred to me is that my mind was stuck on this trauma response. Because lots of my thought processes have been about survival and security. And although, yes, I was in a extremely aggravating state of affairs, I also recognized that I used to be not the person who I used to be. I turned in—and prior to this, I used to be this happy-go-lucky, actually bubbly, make-a-new-friend-everyday individual—and I was this completely-terrified-of-the-world-and-everything-in-it one that was utterly shut down. And the one thing that I was fascinated by more often than not was about my survival. What I additionally observed was emotionally was that I didn’t have entry to joy anymore, which is actually fascinating. As a result of once more, I used to be a very comfortable and happy-go-lucky sort of individual.

And positively, situationally, I can understand how I might be preoccupied with well being and making an attempt to get higher. However much more than that, I observed that I couldn’t access constructive emotional states anymore. And that was sort of curious for me as a result of I assumed, “Wow, I know that I’ve had really great things happen in my life. So surely, I should be able to a) remember one, and b) be able to elevate my emotional state.” And what I observed is that my mind simply stored going back to episodes of trauma from the past, despite the fact that I had utterly resolved these issues. So it was just like the brain was on this trauma response and it was identical to a child in a candy store in search of extra trauma to concentrate on.

So yeah, it was just really fascinating. My thought patterns have been round past trauma or protecting future trauma, but in addition my emotional state was actually around … I only had access to feelings associated to the survival response. So worry, fear, anger, simply sort of emotions like that. After which actually taking a look at my behaviors as nicely. So I assumed, “Okay, if this isn’t a brain injury or brain trauma that is affecting my brain in this certain way, how do I go about changing those patterns, given that I might have the capacity to do that within myself? To self-direct those changes.”

So I was wanting at the work of Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz and the work of Dr. Ramachandran, who talked about creativeness of the mind, and taking a look at how I might use those instruments to truly change that brain patterning. So it was a shock to me that I found a means to truly lower symptoms. And it occurred for very small moments in time. Like, I might do particular workouts that would come with visualization and elevated my emotional state, and for a protracted time period I might notice that my sensory perception would change slightly. And when my sense of odor began to normalize, I knew that I was onto something. As a result of none of the other remedies that I had tried have been in a position to. It was the only thing that I acknowledged that modified my sensory perception, particularly to sense of odor. So I simply started to use myself as a guinea pig and go from there.

But undoubtedly, so, this system itself includes some visualizations, includes small movements, it includes speech. It’s not likely arduous to do, however I came up with an acronym to really take into consideration what the neuroplastic rules are for limbic system rehabilitation and because it relates to the Dynamic Neural Retraining System.

Retraining Your Brain with the Acronym IMAGINE

Annie Hopper:  So, the acronym that I developed known as IMAGINE. So the I stands for intentions, so that we’ve to understand that once we’re in limbic system rehabilitation, the intention just isn’t to essentially lower signs immediately, though that may occur when the nervous system resets itself. However we’d like to flip our focus away from symptoms and onto shifting power in the direction of doing brain rehabilitation workouts that may change the limbic system. And that may, in fact, such as you stated, have a downstream impact on many various techniques of the body.

The M stands for motivation. So we now have to have the willingness and the motivation to grow to be an lively participant within the healing course of. Too much of our medical system has largely positioned the patient in a passive position, the place they depend upon different individuals or outdoors interventions. And that is one thing that’s actually self-directed and executed by the individual. However it has to be executed each day for no less than six months to strengthen those various neural pathways. In order that’s the M.

A stands for awareness and affiliation. So we’ve got to turn out to be consciously conscious and redirect all thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and physical signs which might be related to limbic system impairment. And we also have to turn out to be conscious of unconscious protecting mechanisms that the mind may be working from. For example, like in MCS, the fight-or-flight protecting response might have been applicable with the initial chemical damage. However the brain’s unconscious association to small quantities of chemical compounds as life-threatening that may be in some laundry merchandise isn’t an applicable response.

So, taking a look at how the brain has been affected here and in addition changing our associations. As a result of I feel as soon as we develop into delicate to a certain stimuli, then … Nicely, for me, once I turned delicate to chemical compounds, I started to analysis all the things that I was delicate to. And then it made widespread sense that I’d be reactive to these merchandise, contemplating how carcinogenic they could be or how poisonous they may be. In order that’s fact number one, proper? We know that there are a number of toxic agents or toxins in the surroundings. However the fact number two is that the mind can develop into impaired by trauma, and our focus is absolutely to give attention to that fact number two, is about rehabilitation of the brain.

So, changing, in order that led to having to change my associations with issues. So as an alternative of claiming, “Perfumes are all poison and this is toxic” and actually spending my power and time targeted on how toxic the world is, I had to really change my considering and go, “Okay, you know what? That is true. But for the purpose of rehabilitating my injured limbic system, I’m going to have to focus on something else entirely and something that preferably brings me joy.” In order that was sort of a 180 contemplating that I’d been dwelling in survival.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, and so essential based mostly on Donald Hebb’s insight, neurons that fireplace collectively wire collectively, proper? So you perceive that the extra we run a sure sample or association, the stronger it will get. And so as to shift it, we have now to create a brand new one and then run that one a lot more than the previous one.

Annie Hopper:  Precisely, exactly. And it doesn’t imply that I’m not environmentally conscious, it simply signifies that I want to change my mind packages.

Chris Kresser:  Yes, sure.

Annie Hopper:  Or brain patterns. So thanks for the clarification on that. G stands for good points. So while we’re present process limbic system rehabilitation, it’s really essential to consciously give attention to our positive aspects regardless of how massive or small they’re because we have now this innate negativity bias, which means that we are naturally wired to notice potential threats versus what we will respect or what’s going good in our life. So with limbic system impairment, this negativity bias, becomes magnified. As a result of you’ll be able to imagine, if the menace centers of your mind are firing too rapidly and too typically, that’s clearly going to affect this negativity bias.

So it becomes actually giant and magnified. So we even have to recognize that the recovery course of in limbic system rehabilitation may be gradual, and it’s not essentially linear, it’s not essentially a linear course of. So meaning typically that symptoms will ebb and stream through the recovery process, but we all the time want to remember that general aim of, “Okay, hang on a second. I’m rewiring the limbic system. Even though I might be symptomatic one day, it doesn’t mean that I’m not in the process of rewiring the brain.” It’s like watering a plant.

After you have that focus in mind, you say, “Okay, if I am doing the exercises in the correct way and I’m implementing them on a daily basis and I’m doing this for a minimum of six months,” then your brain truly has no selection however to make these modifications. But I all the time use the analogy identical to watering a seed. You don’t … look, for those who plant a seed within the floor, you don’t dig it up each day to say, “Hey, are you growing yet? Are you growing?” You water that seed and also you give it all the vitamins it needs and you then belief that those pathways are forming.

I stands for incremental coaching. So, incremental coaching is a type of neural shaping that strengthens new neural pathways whereas desensitizing previous neural pathways. And which may contain slightly triggering a response to create a heightened neuroplastic state inside the brain, which makes it simpler for the brain to change. So what we do is it could possibly be by means of small exposure remedy or another type of trigger. But, and it’s not essentially necessary to know what your whole triggers are, having stated that. But if we will trigger the brain barely, it truly activates neural pathways which might be at play with the neural sample itself.

So we will redirect all the actual property that’s concerned in that response in that second of time and move those neural pathways into a more healthy sample. So it’s truly, we reap the benefits of the fact that any person could be reacting.

Chris Kresser:  Proper. And only for the listeners who may be less aware, I’ve talked rather a lot about neurotoxicity and approaches to continual ache on my web site. These are very comparable mechanisms which are utilized by individuals like Dr. Moskowitz, who’s simply across the bay from me, who are using these top-down self-directed neuroplasticity-based approaches to treating continual ache. So it’s actually fascinating and encouraging to see what’s attainable once we’re in a position to redirect our mind in new ways.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, I mean, the outcomes that we’re seeing converse for themselves, truly. However I just needed to get back to IMAGINE for a second, as a result of I only have two more letters to go through. So N stands for neurological and emotional rehearsals. So it’s a type of visualization that chemically blocks the menace mechanism to create a healthy emotional set level in the brain. And what that does is it moves the neurochemistry related with the stress response.

So cortisol, adrenaline, and norepinephrine, or we’d name that CAN, c-a-n, to DOSE chemistry. And DOSE chemistry is d-o-s-e. It stands for dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins, to transfer the brain and physique from a state of survival into that state of progress and restore. So we are saying kick the CAN and get your day by day DOSE. And yeah, it’s actually fairly unimaginable.

And the E, finally, the E stands for environmental consciousness. So recognize toxins in your on a regular basis surroundings, an surroundings that could be contributing to unwell well being, from the products that you simply put on your body to the food that you simply eat to the merchandise that you’ve in your house. Reducing your time on the pc and actually setting yourself up for a very great, healthy neurorehabilitation experience.

Chris Kresser:  That’s an incredible acronym actually. It brings to mild all the numerous approaches and tools that you’ve put together in the DNRS system. And I’m all the time struck once I speak to patients about this, like I stated earlier, how these individuals like Norman Doidge and Michael Moskowitz and all the pioneers, Donald Hebb was talking about this, what was again in the 40s or the 50s that he, I feel, had coined that saying “neurons that fire together wire together.” So this has been around for, these concepts have been around for quite a very long time. However what I really recognize about DNRS is how you’ve put them collectively in a approach that is actionable for a person to find a way to utilize these instruments. Because I feel I’ve been aware of those areas of science for in all probability 20 years. I wrote again once I was learning integrative drugs and still in class, I wrote a paper on the placebo, or self-healing, response.

And we talked about a whole lot of these similar pathways. However—and I’ve learn tons of books about this and skim studies on neuroplasticity—however it was elusive to work out how to truly put those concepts to work in a method that folks might entry them and truly make a distinction in their very own health as an alternative of it simply being an fascinating principle or understanding of how issues are working in the brain. So I’m actually grateful to you and for the work that you simply’ve accomplished in placing this all together within the system.

Annie Hopper:  Thanks, Chris. It’s actually my honor to have the ability to do that. I made a promise to myself once I was suffering, that if and when I found a approach to get well that I might share that with the rest of the world. And that is a part of my promise. And I’m simply so thrilled that increasingly practitioners are seeing the constructive influence of neural retraining with their patients. I simply acquired back from attending a conference, the ICI. Properly, truly, it’s ISEAI, which stands for International Society for Environmentally Acquired Sicknesses.

Chris Kresser:  Sure, I know lots of those clinicians from my work in the environmental illness world; it’s an awesome group.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, it’s an awesome group. And Dr. Robert Naviaux was a speaker at that conference.

Chris Kresser:  Yes.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, he wrote papers—

Chris Kresser:  On the cell danger response.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, on the cell hazard response.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah.

Annie Hopper:  And we have been talking extensively. I had dinner with him one evening, and I used to be speaking to him concerning the cell danger response and how that relates to limbic system impairment and the brain’s context of safety. And when there isn’t any context of safety, in fact, it’s going to affect the body down to a cellular degree.

Chris Kresser:  Sure.

Annie Hopper:  And so, yeah, he was actually excited. On Sunday I spoke for half an hour and simply sort of gave the highlights of what we’re doing and confirmed a video testimonial, a number of the those that have gone by means of this system and are recovering. And he was just lit up. He was identical to, “Wow, this is amazing, the fact that you can show people how to do this. And there’s a step-by-step process.” It’s quite exciting.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah. It’s very exciting because, I mean, Dr. Nathan, Dr. Ackerley, and so most of the different clinicians are there. Myself, we’ve been treating individuals with environmental sickness for many years and we know that the standard approaches could be useful in some instances definitely, however in lots of instances, they are either not helpful at all or they’re not useful enough. They’re not sufficient to reverse the condition. And simply in our follow alone, I imply, I first discovered about DNRS from a patient. And as quickly as I heard about it, I used to be on testing your website and learning more about it. Because that’s the place I study probably the most, is from my patients.

And I’m all the time in search of new tools and new things that may help individuals get well. And this, we have been seeing conditions the place individuals … Mould is a superb instance because we’ve completed a number of work in that area. Anyone would get uncovered to a big quantity of mould. It will develop persistent inflammatory response syndrome, or CIRS, and we might undergo the whole protocol. We might take away them from publicity, we might use binders, we might restore their detox capacity, and they might get better. However then all it took was another mould publicity to send them proper again into that entire cycle once more. And it’s really exhausting to avoid mould utterly, especially in sure elements of the world, until you’re going to go stay in a tent within the desert for the remainder of your life. It may be fairly limiting to stay with that prime sensitivity for mould.

After which once we started to use, beneficial DNRS to loads of our sufferers who had CIRS. We had some patients that had gone by way of the whole thing, the whole Practical Drugs pantheons, so to converse, and had not improved to the degree that we needed them to. After which inside six months, in some instances sooner, some instances slightly longer of doing DNRS, they for the primary time in, like, 15 years of making an attempt to work out their well being drawback have been finally beginning to see some vital progress.

So and that’s been true not just for mould and environmental toxins. It’s been true, we had one affected person who had continual diarrhea for her complete life. She by no means, to her reminiscence, had had a traditional bowel motion and normal digestive perform. And we went by way of the entire, every check you’ll be able to imagine. DNA, PCR, stool testing, SIBO breath testing, urine testing, all the things, and gave her tons and plenty of totally different remedies. And she or he simply, she would begin perhaps to appear to be she was getting higher after which it might simply snap back. That snapback mechanism we talked about earlier. And then after I feel simply three or 4 months of DNRS, she started having normal bowel actions for the primary time in her life, which was simply pretty superb.

And for me, the best way I understand that’s, like, if you turn off the fight-or-flight system and you interact that rest-and-digest mechanism, the parasympathetic, that’s then what creates the setting that is attainable where, like, a healthy gut microbiota can develop. And the body is fairly good at taking good care of itself as soon as the circumstances are proper. So I’m notably fascinated with it for a lot of the digestive and G.I. points because I feel the nervous system has sort of been the missing piece in a lot of people’s, in a number of the best way that we treat that, even in Useful Drugs.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, absolutely, Chris, I might agree. And I imply, in fact, it simply brings an enormous smile to my face once I hear about restoration tales. And but we’ve so many various restoration tales on our website and actual individuals which are struggling and have recovered from a myriad of various circumstances. Such as you stated, whether that’s gut points or immune system points or sensory sensitivities or meals sensitivities or chemical or mould, and so on. And I feel there’s one thing that I’d like to speak to is that this entire, such as you stated, the whole difficulty of avoidance, right?

Chris Kresser:  Proper. Yeah.

Annie Hopper:  It’s unattainable to create an ideal place.

Chris Kresser:  No, no.

Annie Hopper:  We will’t walk all over the world in a bubble. And so, for everyone who’s sick, they’ve already tried that they usually attempt to handle their life by means of avoidance, and that works up until some extent the place perhaps you possibly can attempt to lower the variety of occasions that you’ve exposure. Nevertheless it’s pretty unattainable to do until you reside in the desert. And even then.

Chris Kresser:  And even then, there are consequences to that selection.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  Such as you identified in your personal expertise. You can begin to really feel very isolated and alone and your options for work are limited. Your entire life just will get smaller and smaller. And then you definitely, it’s type of a cascade because you then begin, there’s more probability for melancholy and all of these adverse, the CAN chemistry starts to really hearth.

And also you’ve additionally talked about in your e-book that, and that is additionally sort of a tragic irony, is that avoidance itself can truly perpetuate the cycle. As a result of neurons that fireplace collectively wire together. So we avoid one thing as a result of with the thought that it’s going to harm us, that fires that neural pathway that’s already developed and reinforces it.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  And this isn’t to blame anyone for avoiding things that hurt them. In fact, that’s simply primary human nature.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  And even animal, any animal would do this. So I’m not suggesting that avoidance was not the perfect strategy that we knew on the time. But I’m simply mentioning that it sort of can backfire on us in that means too.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, absolutely. And something that we hearth with worry, any sort of emotional charge that we’ve got with one thing goes to strengthen the neural pathway and the association associated with that stimuli. So, yeah, once we strategy the world from a place of worry, then it actually does strengthen those neural pathways which might be at play in a single huge system impairment. And such as you stated, it’s not their fault, they usually’re not, this can be a brain trauma.

And so as to transfer from that place of avoidance into being able to be round issues once more takes a neural rehabilitation program so as to do this. You just merely wouldn’t go from “Hey, you know, I can’t go anywhere” to “I’m just going power my way through this and I’m going to go everywhere.” It doesn’t work like that. You actually have to rehabilitate the injured brain so as to have the opportunity to particularly go round substances once more.

So it’s a very prescribed neural rehabilitation process that we’ll get somebody from that place of utmost avoidance to being able to stay on the planet once more as a wholesome individual. But once more, even once we’re dwelling on the earth as wholesome individuals, we nonetheless make environmentally conscious decisions and selections based mostly on that.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah. Yeah, and that’s the flipside of what we stated earlier. Simply as this is not a psychological condition the place you’ve simply talked your self into being sick, it’s additionally, you possibly can’t simply speak yourself out of, you just determine in the future, “Okay, I’m no longer sensitive to chemicals,” or “I’m no longer sensitive to electricity or EMF,” or “I’m no longer sensitive to these foods.” You could have to truly do the mind retraining so as to shift the sample. As a result of it’s not just in your imagination.

Annie Hopper:  No, exactly. I mean, there’s a real menace mechanism that’s gone rogue in the brain that’s inflicting this downstream impact of signs in many instances. So we’d like to rehabilitate the mind in order for it to not be sending those downstream messages to the immune system, to the endocrine system, to the gut, whatever. So, yeah, it’s not merely just altering your mind about something.

Chris Kresser:  Right.

Annie Hopper:  It’s not a program about constructive considering or denial and even denial about signs. It’s truly about acceptance that your brain is definitely concerned in the actual illness, and that doesn’t imply your thoughts. That the construction of your brain, which is simply another organ identical to your coronary heart and your lungs, that the construction of your mind is involved. And the best way that your brain works is involved in these teams of sicknesses. So we’re simply actually taking a look at, “Okay, so if the brain is involved, how do we address the brain?” And this is among the methods to handle the mind element.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, I really like that you simply clarified this. This is not just constructive considering. And on the similar time, it does invite us to shift extra of our attention to what goes properly and to domesticate extra constructive emotions. As a result of in the same means that in the event you affiliate something with worry, it’s going to strengthen that neural wiring that happens there, constructive emotions have additionally been, any sort of robust emotion, including constructive emotions, tend to strengthen the neural connections.

The Difference between DNRS, Psychotherapy, and Mindfulness

Annie Hopper:  Absolutely, completely. And a couple other things that I simply regarded as you have been speaking. It’s necessary to give attention to constructive emotions so that that can lay the groundwork for serving to the mind to rewire itself. But in addition forms of typical psychotherapy and why they may not be advisable through the rehabilitation course of. Because you’ll be able to imagine if a mind is stuck in trauma that going again and speaking about previous traumatic occasions wouldn’t essentially be useful for someone who’s already affected by limbic system impairment.

The truth is, speaking about previous trauma can truly reinforce the neural circuits which are at play with the impairment itself. And so, yeah, we don’t need to go to trauma in any respect. We don’t want to go to something even associated with trauma, actually. And the other factor that I needed to say was, the differences between what we do in meditation. Because perhaps the larger umbrella could be mindfulness, nevertheless it’s in a very, very totally different approach. And we know that meditation could be really helpful and it’s a very great tool and it helps a lot of people. And we know that meditation helps to restructure the brain in very particular ways.

But, and what we do is sort of totally different from meditation within the sense that with many types of meditation, we step into that curious observer and we emotionally distance ourselves from our ideas or feelings and what’s occurring. And we simply let it go by and never grow to be hooked up. With limbic system impairment and rehabilitation, we step into that curious observer, however we acknowledge these thought patterns or emotional patterns or behaviors which might be associated with the impairment itself. And once we recognize it, we don’t merely let it’s.

We truly actively step in and redirect the thought, redirect the emotion, the conduct to ensure that the brain to truly take a special pathway. So it’s again, it’s not about denial. It’s about really repatterning the mind in moment to moment, in every moment through the day, however specifically through the rewiring course of as nicely.

Chris Kresser:  Absolutely. And plenty of these approaches are being used for melancholy now. Like Rick Hanson’s work, his e-book Hardwiring Happiness is basically based mostly on plenty of these comparable ideas. And I do know a variety of psychiatrists are more and more getting interested by neuroplasticity as a approach of rewiring melancholy and nervousness. And I know DNRS can also be useful for that as properly.

It’s really cool for me to see these insights coming from totally different locations and being applied in several methods. And I do assume that there’s a very shortly growing degree of consciousness concerning the importance of neuroplasticity and understanding well being and disease. And then how we will apply it to truly reverse disease and improve our high quality of life.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, yeah. And I’m actually excited to be on this place, to be a pacesetter on this area and in addition to watch what number of hundreds of individuals are recovering. It fills me with joy that I can’t even categorical, and I’m actually longing for our future and that the medical system actually starts as properly concentrate. And in addition that we start to recognize sickness sooner relatively than later, so that we will forestall years of struggling and, in fact, relationships and cash and all of that stuff that goes with being sick.

How You Can Attempt DNRS

Chris Kresser:  Absolutely. Properly, thank you a lot again for this work and the whole lot you’re doing to help individuals to get well their well being with this strategy. And the place can individuals study extra about DNRS?

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, they will go to our web site, which is Once more, that’s And I wrote a ebook in 2014 referred to as Wired for Healing: Remapping the Brain to Get well from Continual and Mysterious Sicknesses. That may be found on the web site as properly. And truly we offer this system in three totally different formats.

We’ve got a 14-hour educational DVD that’s out there, and in addition that program is now obtainable online. So there’s a 14-hour educational on-line program that folks can do in the event that they don’t have DVD players. As a result of they’re going to be a factor of the previous now. We’ve to keep up with the occasions and know-how.

So, and the other approach that the program may be accessed is thru our five-day interactive training seminars. And people, we maintain those throughout numerous locations of North America and Europe. And they can be found on our website as properly. So we go to totally different resorts or retreat centers, and for five days individuals are utterly immersed within this neurorehabilitation process. And you may think about that we vet our doubtless places rather well. So, in fact, we attempt to make them as environmentally aware for those who have sensitivity points or meals restrictions, that type of thing, because we would like to make it possible for we set up the healthiest type of setting for fulfillment in this system. So these are the three ways in which this system could be accessed, and in addition the e-book Wired for Therapeutic.

Chris Kresser:  And you then even have DNRS coaches, which I very much advocate to my patients who we refer to DNRS. As a result of change is tough. Any sort of change. Altering your eating regimen, adopting a new exercise routine. But altering entrenched brain patterns is particularly arduous, I feel. As a result of they’re recurring they usually really feel very acquainted.

If you start to change them, they start to feel, that might really feel uncomfortable and unfamiliar. And I feel it’s, without help, that can be very challenging. I’ve simply observed with my patients, the ones who get teaching and help and have a help community, their entire family is on board in supporting them in their DNRS follow, they get higher results.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  And it is sensible to me why that could be the case.

Annie Hopper:  Properly, yeah. It’s like, any sort of change in your behaviors, proper? Everyone is aware of, yeah, I should exercise daily. However perhaps it’s going to take you a private trainer to get you motivated to go to the health club, to do the workouts that you simply want to do. So yeah, there’s large worth in hiring a licensed DNRS coach.

So these are those that have gone by means of the program, that have recovered from persistent sickness and have been extensively educated in supporting people who find themselves implementing the DNRS program. So regardless of what your expression of limbic system impairment is or nevertheless that’s expressing, the coaches might be in a position to, our certified coaches can be in a position to guide you through this system and to actually level out any type of hindrances you may need or create some clarity or provide next steps on your rehabilitation process.

Additionally, we’ve a free online group forum. So anybody that purchases this system, whether it’s DVD or on-line or they attend the five-day interactive coaching seminar, all of these individuals have entry to our free group discussion board. And I don’t know what number of members are on there. However it’s something alongside the strains of 5,500 individuals.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, I’ve heard it’s very lively, and my patients who participate in it say that it’s additionally a very great supply of help.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, I mean, it’s just this large library of data, of folks that have recovered from the program, individuals which are reporting their victories, and I feel that if you will get your loved ones concerned in your recovery course of, it’s actually great too.

So perhaps give them understanding of what it is that you simply’re going by way of by getting them to learn the ebook Wired for Healing or going to the website and seeing the science behind what that is. As a result of it’s really essential that, yeah, I imply, if we will, we would like to have supportive individuals in our surroundings which are really partaking with us in a constructive method during our rehabilitation process.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, the more help we have now the higher.

Chris Kresser:  I agree and I feel, I really like your e-book. My viewers, I’m very science-minded and have an evidence-based strategy. And once I first noticed DNRS, I’ve a bit of confession to make here.

Annie Hopper:  Positive.

Chris Kresser:  Earlier than I really sort of understood the idea for it and had learn more about it, for those who take a look at the video testimonials with none of this understanding, that’s one of many causes I needed to have you ever on the show, they will virtually appear simply unbelievable. Too good to be true.

Annie Hopper:  Proper.

Chris Kresser:  Particularly people who’ve been sick for such a long time they usually’ve all typically been gotten their hopes up for one thing. And like, “Oh, I did this and I recovered.” They usually’re understandably skeptical and uninterested in hoping and then having their hopes dashed. And for those who take a look at a number of the testimonials with all the things that folks have recovered from and you don’t have an understanding of the scientific foundation for this technique, it could possibly seem virtually too good to be true.

But then whenever you study neuroplasticity and the limbic system and limbic system impairments and how the mind is the control middle for optimal well being, and the way limbic system impairments have an effect on the nervous system, the endocrine system, the immune system, then it begins to make sense how all of those circumstances, which have not been seen as being related, are very a lot associated beneath this umbrella of limbic system impairment. And for me, and I feel for many of my sufferers, understanding the science behind it helped open their minds to the likelihood and to actually type of accept the superb results that individuals are getting and to actually truly give them hope for the first time, in some instances for a few years, if not many years.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, yeah. Nicely, and it’s a, thank you for saying that. And yeah, it does seem too good to be true firstly. Because you take a look at those video testimonials and you’re like, “What? How can that even be possible? I’ve been sick for 20 years and I’ve seen every specialist known to mankind. And surely if they didn’t know, then this can’t be true.” However it’s actually taking a look at virtually from a special paradigm and actually taking a look at how the mind is, like you stated, the control middle for optimal health.

So we’re really impacting the brain by way of this program and it has a whole lot of downstream effects. So I’m simply really grateful to be in the place to assist individuals transfer out of that cycle of illness. But in addition, I needed to point out the spectrum of illness as a result of I feel that sadly by the point that folks discover out about us, typically they’re means into, like you stated, a few of them have been sick for many years. So if you’ve been sick for decades, you really build a, it actually is tough to have hope once you’ve been sick for that lengthy. And however this is a completely totally different strategy. So for those individuals who have been sick for a very very long time, I might say don’t lose hope and provides the program a attempt.

And I feel that folks can be really pleasantly stunned by the outcomes. And the brain has no selection however to change for those who give it the appropriate instructions and the correct approach to rehabilitate. So yeah, I’m just super thrilled, and thanks, Chris, for speaking about your patients that have really benefited from the program as properly. Because definitely in the event you had not that have out of your sufferers, it might be exhausting to consider.

Chris Kresser:  Proper.

Annie Hopper:  But you’ve seen it first-hand.

Chris Kresser:  I’ve seen it first-hand. Absolutely. So it’s superb to have this as a resource to advocate to others. And I feel hope is admittedly what it comes down to for therefore many people who’ve been in the state of affairs as you just talked about, for many years or years, they usually’ve tried so many various issues. They usually have, in many instances, lost hope.

And just having the understanding that you would be able to take management of some of these circumstances and the signs by rewiring your personal brain I feel is actually empowering for a lot of people.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  So thank you so much for coming onto the show and once more for the work that you simply’ve carried out. And we’ll put all of the hyperlinks you mentioned in the show notes of the episode. And good luck to you, and I’m excited to see what the research outcomes will present.

Annie Hopper:  Properly, thank you so much, Chris, for having me on the present. And thank you for all the essential work that you simply’re doing with individuals too. I’m just so impressed with the work that you simply’re doing and that you simply’re recognizing that limbic system rehabilitation could be part of the larger puzzle for therefore many people. So thanks, and it’s been my honor to be on your show. Thanks a lot.

Chris Kresser:  You’re welcome, Annie. Take care and good luck.

Annie Hopper:  Yeah, you too. Thanks. Bye.

Chris Kresser:  Bye.